Recruiting Give and Take: Part 3

In this installment, we try to put some closure on the issue of the amount of athletic scholarship awards for track and field/cross country. If we haven’t answered your particular question, either write you comment below or on Alan’s site, and we’ll try to offer what insight or opinions we might have. Please be patient with us, though, as neither of us enjoy unlimited amounts of discretionary time.

My comments are italicized; Alan’s comments begin after his photo.

Great comments on both the co.milesplit.us site and as well as www.coachjayjohnson.com and, rather than try to answer those individually at this time, I would like to offer the following as a conclusion to this question.

There were no comments or questions specific to the issue, “If an athlete runs ____ what size of scholarship can they expect?” And in some ways it’s great that money is not the primary issue in the comments appearing on both sites. That being said, if you are a parent reading this and your son has run 1:54 and 4:10 as a junior you can, and should, be thinking, “If he improves a little as a senior he should get the majority of his education paid at an academically prestigious school.” That’s totally fair… and I called some college coaches to make sure I was on track by saying that sub 1:54 and sub 4:10 is pretty good. And if you’re the parent of young women who as a junior will run 2:12 and 4:54 this year you should be thinking the same thing.

That said, most students who have good grades and who have run fast have an interesting continuum of options by the middle of their senior year; big scholarship offers from schools they’re not interested (yep, that sucks) and small offers or 0%, i.e. walk-on offers, at academically prestigious schools (yep, you want that education but the offer is small). What to do as a family?

Be honest about how important the scholarship is and have a candid family meeting about it. In my family it was simple – I wanted to walk on at CU, turning down the DII offer that would have paid 80% (I forget the athletic and academic breakdown – I had good, not great, test scores and was a 4:30 kid at the time – decent, but not great). My parents said that we could afford CU, provided I work each summer to earn any and all money needed for my super cool, super trusty 1979 Ford F150 truck (two-wheel, not four-wheel, drive, but still very cool…arguably the only reason my wife initially dated me). I was quite nervous having that conversation with my parents, but it was a conversation that needed to happen. If you’re a family that cannot afford to send your son or daughter to a school that costs $40,000 a year, yet your son or daughter will get 80% of their education paid for at a school that costs $16,000 a year, then you need to explain to your son or daughter how important the scholarship money is. The flip side is that many students don’t need the money and the scholarship becomes an ego issue for – in rank order – dad, HS coach, mom… with my experience being that the student athlete couldn’t care less and is dying to run at the school that annually makes the NCAA Cross Country meet but is only offering 20%.

Okay, that’s enough – tons of great questions to answer, but please give us time to coordinate our thoughts and efforts.

Alan Versaw, The Classical Academy

Jay went first, so I get to try to tie this thing off this time.

As a high school coach, I’d be deliriously happy if a much higher percentage of college coaches talked candidly with prospects about the amounts of athletic scholarship aid they are likely to be able to offer prospects. Absolutely, the actual amount will vary from prospect to prospect, but a simple disclaimer such as I’ve shown below could forestall no end of misunderstandings and ill feeling:

“We bring in approximately twelve women per year on some form of athletic scholarship. We average 3.8 full scholarship equivalents per year and must distribute that amount among the roughly twelve individuals we bring in on scholarship each year. Another ten to twenty athletes come in each year as walk-ons, with no initial scholarship support, but with the prospect of earning such support as their performances merit. If you are a top-level prospect, this gives you some sort of idea of what level of support we might be able to bring you in on. Understand also that it’s likely that the amount and timing of these individual award offers will vary somewhat based on the responses (accept/decline) of the highest level prospects that we recruit in any given year. If you are a high-achieving student, you may also come in line for assistance in the form of academic scholarships. For more information about academic scholarships, contact…”

Long life experiences have taught me that the costs of candor and full disclosure in the short term are easily overwhelmed by the costs of ill-feeling, unfavorable word of mouth, and distrust in the long term.

A statement like the one above could be posted on the prospect athlete questionnaire on the school’s athletic web site. It could be included in the mass mailings that so many schools send out to athletes who earn high places in state cross country and track meets. It could be added to the first e-mail exchange with the prospect athlete. Somehow, get this information out and abroad. Obviously, different circumstances dictate different notices for male and female prospects.

Speaking of the differences between male and female prospects, it is not merely the supply-side of different numbers of scholarships available for men and women that drives the differences in awards. There’s also a demand-side to this equation. A few years ago, a college coach (and it may have been Jay Johnson, but I can’t say for sure) told me that if you talked to the top 50 finishers in the boys state cross country meet, you’d find out that 48 wanted to go on and run in college. If you talked to the top 50 finishers in the girls state cross country meet, you’d find out that 10 wanted to go on and run in college. I’m guessing that figure of 10 has risen some in the interim, but it’s still true that a larger percentage of the guys than the girls nurture a strong desire to compete at the college level. The implication here, then, is that an expression of interest in running by the 40th-place girl at the state cross country meet is likely to grab a college recruiter’s attention a lot more quickly than an expression of interest from the 40th-place boy. Even this year, I’ve heard of athletic scholarship offers being extended to girls who missed the top 100 (all classifications combined) of the Colorado state cross country meet; I feel safe in saying that opportunity would never arise for a boy finishing outside of the top 100.

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  • David
    Alan, and Jay

    I have seen that coachs and some athlete's have comments. But not to many from experienced parents. Having been through this process as a parent I would like to share my thoughts.

    First, I agree with everything that has been said by Alan and Jay.....well mostly. The cost of a college education is crushing. Now, with the economy in a down swing there is more pressure on the family education budget. Sure there are parents who just want little johnny "elite runner" on the front page of the newspaper signing with School X, however most reasonable parents who love their children and just want them to have an opportunity to get an education and want to be able to afford it. Everything else is gravy.

    So when you say to me for instance "I can give your son (hypothetical here) 20% to come to CU" that means I'm coming up with 30-32 thousand a year as an out of state parent. ( note: Parents it is a really bad idea to plan on getting bumped in money after johnny gets there that is not a reasonable outlook and you should not plan on it. Expect no more money and if it comes I'm sure you won't be disappointed.)

    Jay I saw your precious sweetheart on the video, I have four of those
    (mine are less rubbery now) and 30-32 thousand is cost prohibitive to me keeping in mind I have three other children to think about. That is a sad fact.

    I think what I am saying is that many parents would love for their children to take that offer and attend a good school with a great program but it just can't be done. Instead reality strikes and they have to persuade Johnny to go where they can afford. Money (like it or not) is the biggest factor from most parents perspective. ( our philosophy has always been the best education we can reasonably afford). I do not want my child saddled with college and post graduate student loan debt .

    Maybe I'm totally wrong and the coaches, who again do this more than us parents can set me straight.

    One other point I would like to make, at the risk of sounding like a commercial, there is a four letter word I would urge and do routinely urge parents to take a look at. ROTC. I know, I know, there is a perception that this is bad in many circles but in keeping with this discussion and the subject of Track scholarship money I think a word needs to be said here.

    ROTC has a ton of money and they will give it to your child for college if they are willing to spend 6-8 years in the Army National Guard. (I only have experience with the army. but the other services have ROTC also) If you and/or your child is interested in or (at least ok with) that prospect this is a great way to go. My experience is that ROTC is compatible with varsity sports, especially track, at a lot of universities. The ROTC department will work with you because they view your varsity athlete status as prestigious to the ROTC program.
    Little Johnny will be running track, getting an education paid for and literally making money while he is in school. Contrary to some things I have heard in the past, your child (as an ROTC cadet) will also have a normal college experience I don't want to turn this into an ad, but I do want to make this point : ROTC would make it possible to now say to mythical coach at CU, that Little Johnny is going to take your offer of 20% we are thrilled and by the way have you ever met COL so and so down at the ROTC department...........

    This is all first hand experience. Both myself and my oldest son went to college on combined ROTC and Athletic scholarships. I was never sorry that I did, my son will have to speak for himself!

    David
  • Don
    I'll admit I just ball parked the percentages from memory, so let's go with your numbers. I missed the nuance you intended in the top fifty, i.e. seniors ;-) but I understand. I don't know that it matters if they are seniors or not -- do they intend to go on. More boys than girls it is suggested will say yes and I believe that is true just based on who does go on.

    Another interesting thing is the fall off of quality. Kids know where they stand (it is their parents and occasionally a coach who doesn't).

    Compare Michigan for example where I put together the top fifty from our four divisions at the state meet in a "dream" race. The top fifty boys are separated by 25 seconds (and our top boys are pretty talented most years). The top fifty girls are separated by 98 seconds! So the qualitative difference fifty deep suggests that girls don't have the same level of talent through the field.

    Girls: http://michigancrosscountry.com/michigan_track_cross_country_forum/showthread.php?tid=544

    Boys: http://michigancrosscountry.com/michigan_track_cross_country_forum/showthread.php?tid=543

    Does this beg the question? Are boys trained better? But that is for a different thread.

    So back to the topic, recruiting ....

    Let me ask another question to get on your list. I have a "national" quality athlete. The school she is most interested in gives her a schedule of times vs money. For each second she improves she gains $1000 x 4 years. Her goal then becomes to run as fast as she possibly can. My goal is to win as a team (meaning she will seldom have the opportunity for a purely time driven race). Of course it cannot be a relay split either. Is that fair for the college to do to me? While I certainly want to find opportunities for the athlete to succeed, my primary goal as a school coach should be team in my humble opinion. Fortunately in this case the athlete was unselfish and agreed, and ultimately got a great time ... but what is fair for a college coach to set as standards for my athlete. Should they take into account that she ran in two-four races in most competitive meets?
  • Relays splits count!...assuming you can watch 'em...
  • Don,

    Thanks for the observations. Your percentages of girls and boys in the top 50 sounded about what I would have guessed. Intrigued, though, I went and checked. For 2008 in Colorado, at least, it was 28 or 29 boys out of the top 50 who were seniors and 15 out of 50 girls. That is an important difference to take note of. That said, I think the implication of the original remark that I quoted was to look at the top 50 finishing seniors (i.e., those who could be recruited). I've always understood it that way, at least, though I don't recall it being said that way. Anyhow, I suspect the very fact that so many girls struggle with improving their performances through high school is part of the reason, as you suggest, that many are fully ready to give it up before they go to college. Like you, however, I'm a little puzzled by the phenomenon. Most of the girls in our program also continue to progress through high school. They typically do not progress as much as the boys, but we do see improvement.
  • Don
    … and I called some college coaches to make sure I was on track by saying that sub 1:54 and sub 4:10 is pretty good. And if you’re the parent of young women who as a junior will run 2:12 and 4:54 this year you should be thinking the same thing.


    You might also want to discuss the differences in how athletes achieved these marks. If I take a 2:12 out of a high volume program and a 2:12 out of a modest volume program -- and by this I mean the level of training -- as a college coach, to the extent I can know the two programs and their histories, I'll take the latter every time if I am a college coach. More potential for improvement.

    As a high school coach of girls, I am happy to say that most of my athletes improve throughout their high school career. Not always, but usually. However one of the things you will find not apples to apples in your above discussion ... in the mens top fifty, 70% of them will be seniors. In the womens top fifty only 25-30% will be seniors. Women tend to peak and then taper out (more on this in a moment). Men are rapidly improving. The really successful women runners who will go on and improve, but for many of them, they have already seen their peak performance or are at a diminishing marginal returns point in their careers.

    Why women peak early: I don't know. Many suggest it is the physical maturation they will undergo (many skinny little freshmen aren't skinny little seniors). Some suggest it is in fact that they simply are not as interested in the long term in competing. Some say it is how we train them (and partly this is true I believe).

    I look forward to your continued discussions. I might add that the italics is hard to read. Maybe blue and black colors instead or something?
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