Mailbag 002

I’m excited to see this series grow this fall as my assumption is that it will be quite cross country specific. Please feel free to email me question at coachjayjohnson@gmail.com

This is a long question with three parts so I’m going to respond to each part individually.

Hey Jay–

Going back a few months to when you were posting on Sara Vaughn’s training, I was wondering how specific her weight training was to her as an athlete. The school I coach at has a great weight room, and a math teacher who is basically a strength training/athletic development guru, and weight training has been an area of emphasis over the three (this will be my fourth) season that I’ve been involved with the team. Despite the wealth of resources, I’d say we only have about 10-20 girls who really buy into the program. Now, I realize in some programs that would be near 100% involvement; we are lucky enough, however, that 20 girls is only about 25% turnout. Even discounting the girls that are only out for XC for the social/fitness aspects, its still a less than sterling participation. Several factors, of course, are at play: there’s a percentage that retain the knee-jerk, lifting-is-for-football-players reaction. There’s also some girls, freshmen/late-bloomers, whom sending into the weight room is probably just setting up for failure. Obviously, general strength work, is part of the solution. We’ve always done core work, but in a somewhat random manner (8-10 minutes of 30 sec exercises lead by captains). Starting with track season, we started refining the focus of our core/GS work with “new core” which is heavily indebted to you and Mike Smith and have continued our refinement over the summer. So, I guess what this whole paragraph boils down to is, Sara’s lifting, is one example of a one lift day/lots of GS work program. How applicable is her routine to the general population (This is also a question for our ST/AD guru)? I suppose the balance between the two aspects (lifting/GS) will be something I will continued to tinker with as long as I coach, but just wondering what your two cents were.

I think the weight room has a place in HS girls distance running…but I say that partly because the weight room is the room in the school that has “stuff” that will help girls. There is a primary research study (maybe Alan has it) that shows that simple weight baring exercises like a squat dramatically decrease the incident of stress fractures in girls. Is that a reason to have the whole team squat? No. But a progression of body weight work that leads to some squats in the weight room over a 3-4 year HS career is not only realistic but one could argues is the ethical thing to do for these girls. I can’t tell you how many girls I see at camp each summer who are badly in need of this type of progression. These are good HS runners and while they have done a nice job developing their aerobic metabolism, most will fail to run well in college because of injuries that will come as an extension of being bad athletes. Or, as my buddy Mike Smith likes to say, these kids are “lungs with legs” rather than athletes who run well.

Now, the cool thing about your question is that you know the problem and the problem is some combo of the strength coaching being good (intimidating? if he’s good then he likely intimidates skinny HS XC girls) and the fact that the room is intense. Socially the room doesn’t make sense and that makes a hard sell (i.e. non-running work for runners) an even harder sell.

I think you need to write a plan for the “ideal HS career” for a girl in your program. Not a girl who will win state, but a girl who would have a blast over 3-4 years and who would continue to run faster each year. The progression starts with body weight GS work, then moves to work on the track with med balls or shots and the ends in the weight room. If you think of those as three distinct phases then the chance that they’ll be bought in by the third part is pretty high.

That said, if I was was you I’d challenge myself to get out of the room the entire academic year and just do GS work that does not involve the room and work towards 100% buy in. Vern Gambetta is always talking about the “weight room without walls” and while it’s obviously easier for him to get the stimulus he wants outside of the room, the level of athlete you working with will make this less challenging than if you had U. Bolt on an track in Jamaica.

So, you see why I might have felt a little long-winded for the comments section. In fact, as I wrote the above, another question/comment has percolated to the top of my head: I’ve enjoyed your various GS progression and experimented with my own but with official practice starting we will soon have another 40-50 girls who didn’t do the “progression” over the summer. Having 80 kids on the team leads to a wide ability range (sub-15 to almost 25+ for a 4k) and core/GS is one of the things everybody can do together. There’s always a disparity in abilities every year, but this year I think it might be more pronounced thanks to the more challenging routines we have been doing (some kids have been using the LM, LL as a warmup for 6 weeks now, some girls will have never done it). So do we sacrifice team unity with two progressions or do we have everybody start back at square one (which in the end might not be the worst idea in the world since the start of the school year will be an added stressor for everyone).
Wow, if you have waded through all of that thanks! My final question will be brief (at least I’ll try to keep it that way). I was browsing through Vern Gambetta’s blog and came across the following statement:

Various permutations of from running including high knee skips, high knee running and pawing are predicated on having time in the air to recover the leg through in the step cycle … If you are using these types of drills for anyone besides a sprinter, jumper or hurdler in track and field you are probably wasting your time.

http://www.functionalpathtrainingblog.com/2009/07/form-running-the-baby-elephant-waltz.html

I know you few such drills as perhaps not so much benefiting form necessarily, but as specific strength–and range of motion?–exercises. Do you also incorporate any speed ladders etc in your athletes training? Of course, this leads to the conundrum of getting kids to believe they efficacy (the drills, not the kids) for athletes besides football players.
Anyway, thanks again if you read all of that (along with all the great work you do on the blog). The act of just writing that helped to focus me a bit, so at the very least, thanks for galvanizing me to if not action at least thought.
Thos

In regards to separating the team, I think you can simply switch the order of things that I recommend. You could have everyone show up to practice and go right into the skipping exercises, then have everyone start the LM and LL, knowing that the girls who’ve done it this summer will fly through it. Going through the LM twice is a realistic amount of work for your best girls and the LM, then LL then back for a set of the LM makes a lot of sense.

In regards to sprint drills, I believe in doing some, but mostly because it is a way to improve strength in a sport specific manner and it’s a way to incorporate some general athleticism into practice, reminding the distance runner’s body that it should also coordinated and athletic. That said, you only have so many minutes for practice and if you need to cut something out then drills may need to go since you’re keeping the LM/LL, the metabolic training (i.e. the running workout) and the post workout GS. However, if you have 90 minutes each day you can get a lot done; if you have 90 minutes each day and then 105 minutes twice a week you can do just about anything. Final thought on this point, the Aerobic Work Warm-Up is obviously less intense than the the sprint drills in Sara’s competition warm-up yet for most cross country workouts the Aerobic Work WU is a great way to sneak in some extra work, yet it something a lot of kids can do at once. If you have a big field that will fit 80 kids, then great. If you just have a track then you could put two groups on each straight away and probably fit a group on each curve, accommodating 80 kids.

I’m sure the readership will have some thoughts on this, so let me close by saying thanks Thos for your thoughtful and detailed question.

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  • marcluko

    since we are on the subject of GS i was wondering what you would suggest for more upperbody strength. I know Sara does dips and rookies and such but what else can i do for upper body strength?

  • mgooch

    I certainly agree with the sentiment that there is a definite place for strength training in the high school athlete (especially females). As we have discussed previously on the blog, the prevalence of patella femoral stress syndrome (among other overuse injuries) is almost a recurring theme in many young high school runners. The major culprit of many injuries in young runners (as it is in PFSS) is specific muscle imbalance or weakness. Certainly many, if not all, of these imbalances/weaknesses (VMO, gluteus medius, tibilais anterior, hip flexors) can be addressed in a well stocked weight room. But it matters not how great the facility is if the athletes wont use it. I know that in the past we have struggled to get some of our college kids to buy into using resistance training of any sort, much less working out hard in the weight room… so take solace that you are not alone in fighting that battle. I think the weight room can certainly provide an imposing aura for distance runners, who often possess thin, lightly muscled frames. The GS routines that Jay and Mike Smith have developed provide for a great introduction for your team into the benefits of getting stronger. The LM/LL sequences allow the young athletes to address many of the inadequacies that may indeed be leading to their tendency towards being “unathletic.” All of these benefits can certainly be acheived without ever setting foot inside the weight room. The amount of body weight exercises that can be used to strengthen the lower/upper bodies and the core are almost limitless…it often times seems the only limits are those in your imagination. I would encourage coaches at the high school and middle school levels to try to find ways to make the strengthening exercises fun (games, competitions, relays etc). It can make the introduction of strength training exercises motivational activities… and offer a bridge to more specific/intense resistance training work in the weight room (or else where) if desired (Vern's weight room without walls)

    As it relates to the “sprint drills,” I will have to slightly disagree with the quote from Vern Gambetta…though I do so with much some chagrin. I think that drills (and certain types of plyometrics) serve to greatly improve the proprioceptive nature and control of running related movements for many athletes….young or old. When done correctly certainly many of the drills can offer hidden strength benefits as Jay mentioned. Also… i feel that the email writter also may have taken that quote slightly out of context. In the blog Vern was addressing football offensive linemen doing the drills sluggishly and without purpose. I certainly agree that these drills have very little carryover for athletes that spend their time on the field exploding out of a three point stance. And any drill or movement done incorrectly is certainly limited in its benefit. However, we are specicially talking about the benefits of these drills to distance runners. In my opinion, while there is no doubt that a true metabolic stimulus (running) is the most needed component of training, that component needs to be supplemented at times to ensure that runners can maintain strength in all three planes. If nothing but sagital plane distance running is done… the distance runner will in time become less athletic due to lack of strength and activity in the tranverse and frontal planes. Sprint/agility drills could also be strategically selected to help engage the posterior chain (often ignored by distance runners) thereby furthering the goal of addressing muscle weakness/imbalances.

    Also, the sprint drills…along with some good ole fashion hurdle work can loosen and strengthen the hip gurdle, while break up the monatony(sp?) associated with logging miles.

    Sorry so long

    Matt

  • mgooch

    Marcluko,

    I think I read on another post that you are a high school runner. My first question to you would be how old are you? I ask because generally the answer will lend some idea of your experience in resistance training. Are you wanting exercises in the weight room… or out? Next I would ask what your goals for your strength training are? There is a various assundry of exercises ranging from simple to complex to improve your strength as a runner.

    There are certainly a vast array of exercises that you can do to strengthen your upper body… only using your body weight. Push up combinations are a great place to start because you have all the needed equipment attached to you… and the ground is (almost) always under you. Things as simple as varying hand placement can target different muscle groups. Also, you can add clap push ups to those to induce a plyometric response in the upper body musculature.

    Pull ups have always been a favorite of mine again because of all of the different variations available with hand placement. Often times the back can be forgotten in favor of the chest when it comes time for upper body work. Also, because body weight exercises require core stabilization, there is always additional secondary benefit when completed correctly.

    Dips are certainly sufficient for strengthing the chest and shoulders and when combined with push ups and pull ups… they round out a great all around upper body workout.

    The other nice thing about these three types of exercises (push ups, pull ups and dips) is that they are very time efficient. Its always easier to drop and give your self 3 sets of 20 push ups after a run… than to hit the weight room for 3-5 sets of bench press at 75% of your 1RM.

    Matt MS, C.Ped, CSCS

  • thomas_t

    Jay–

    Thanks for not only wading through that big block of text but for the excellent response. No sooner did I write then official practice started and we probably now have about half the team lifting (which given kids other commitments to homework,family, drama–of both the Shakespearian and high school varieties), music, etc is probably about as good as one can expect). The other day I counted 9 freshman alone lifting. Anyway, I like your idea of the 3-4 year progression but I have a hard time working it in. Core/GS is the ONE thing every one does together. With 80 kids we constantly preach that the 80th is as important as the first so I think it is for everybody to do the same thing at least once a day. Then again I guess a four year veteran should be capable of doing as much GS as any other 4 year runner regardless of what their times are. Something to think about and play with over the years I guess. Right now it I can see a definite progression from xc to track when the number of girls focusing primarily on 1500/3k's drops to a more manageable 10-15. There's a question for the community: How do you combat the perception that cross country is awesome and track sucks?

    Thanks again for the response,

    tct

  • marcluko

    Mgooch(sorry i dont know your real name),

    I'm currently 17 years old and I'm about to start my senior year. I'm one of those lean runners that stand out and look out of place (ex. Ryan Shay) so I don't want to be bulking up any more so that i'm not carrying around any extra muscle mass (i'm 178-179). As a bigger runner I tend to have issues lengthening my stride and getting my turnover going effeciently. Also in regards to your other comment below i also struggle with PFSS which is going away and ankle issues which i now see are cause by strength issues. ME being a bigger leaner guy i assumed that i was plenty strong in my lower body but now i question that. Also my coach doesnt really have the time nor the knowledge to get our team going with a regular strength plan (he's a great coach and knows alot about running but not strength). So i have been looking up stuff on my own and have found great stuff from Coach Jay. I just wanted more stuff to add to that so i can get rid of these muscular imbalances and get my mechanics running smoothly as well as getting my right knee solid again. Another reason why i mention my knee is because my whole team is starting to suffer from knee pain (constant road running) and alot of it is becasue we dont do strength or drills that much as a team. Sorry for the length but i didnt want to leave out any details. Thank you for your time.

    -Marc Luko

  • marcluko

    Mgooch(sorry i dont know your real name),

    I'm currently 17 years old and I'm about to start my senior year. I'm one of those lean runners that stand out and look out of place (ex. Ryan Shay) so I don't want to be bulking up any more so that i'm not carrying around any extra muscle mass (i'm 178-179). As a bigger runner I tend to have issues lengthening my stride and getting my turnover going effeciently. Also in regards to your other comment below i also struggle with PFSS which is going away and ankle issues which i now see are cause by strength issues. ME being a bigger leaner guy i assumed that i was plenty strong in my lower body but now i question that. Also my coach doesnt really have the time nor the knowledge to get our team going with a regular strength plan (he's a great coach and knows alot about running but not strength). So i have been looking up stuff on my own and have found great stuff from Coach Jay. I just wanted more stuff to add to that so i can get rid of these muscular imbalances and get my mechanics running smoothly as well as getting my right knee solid again. Another reason why i mention my knee is because my whole team is starting to suffer from knee pain (constant road running) and alot of it is becasue we dont do strength or drills that much as a team. Sorry for the length but i didnt want to leave out any details. Thank you for your time.

    -Marc Luko

  • http://coachjayjohnson.com CoachJay

    Great information/response – thanks Matt!

    On the issue of drills, the reason that I really like some type of drill is the focus on coordination and athleticism that it brings to practice. That said, I do agree with a comment Steve Magness that drills are often too big a part of practice and that we all need to be mindful of choosing the most efficacious activities when designing practice. The irony with me saying that is that the time the post-collegians have to practice is much greater than HS and collegiate athletes so I can experiment a bit, keeping in mind that their attention span is the limiting factor.

    Great comments – thanks to everyone for your time.

  • http://coachjayjohnson.com CoachJay

    Thank for your contributions Mr T. and glad to hear you have half of the team lifting.

    consider the overhead squat as part of the teaching progression with the squat. I will try to post something about how to use the weight room and there are some experts here that can help as well.

    Best of luck to you and the team this fall.

  • thomas_t

    Matt–

    Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed reply as well. No need to apologize for length, as the above might suggest I have a propensity for verbosity. I need to find a way that I can post the routines we've been doing, both GS and lifting. I'll have to figure out google docs I suppose. Old Core was basically 20 different 30 sec exercises. Last XC season we added Ethyl (Myrtl's sister), in track we added back and pedestal. Started this summer we added LM/LL as well as the Cannonball routine, Myrtl, and the Big X routine (this Saturday is plan to be our first Big 10) as well as some ROM/stretching stuff cribbed from the Nick Willis article in Running Times. I agree that great way for young kids to address the problems presented by being a stereotypical ectomorphic distance runner, and truth be told there are some freshman you would be setting up for failure if you sent them into the weight room and told them to go squat, etc. Also, from a coaching standpoint it's a lot easier to spot the malingerers; it's a lot harder to fake the pedestal than crunches!

    As far as the Vern Gambetta blog goes, I'm pretty sure it was taken in context since the direct quote was “If you are using these types of drills for anyone besides a sprinter, jumper or hurdler in track and field you are probably wasting your time.” That being said I would agree that they (drills) are more specific to distance runners than 300 lb behemoths interested primarily in explosiveness from a three point stance, but as Vern says, most specific to hurdlers, sprinters jumpers et al. We've been A- and B-skipping 1-2 x's / week as part of our ROM routine. I guess what I am more specifically interested in are drills (pylo's) that take the strength gained from lifting and increase the speed/force with which it is applied to the ground. Hope my fuzzy physics makes sense.

    tct

  • http://coachjayjohnson.com CoachJay

    There is an excellent interview on the Canadian Coaching Centre site with Frans Bosch

    http://www.athleticscoaching.ca/

    I will write more about the Bosch interview because I don't completely understand it, yet I bring it up for a simple reason.

    Okay, slight rant and tct, PLEASE know that this is not directed at you. At this point I assume that few people are reading the comments (I think people read the original posts, but I don't think they go back and read the comments…but maybe I'm wrong). You're a tremendous coach no doubt and I don't want you to take this as me telling you what to do; rather, this is my asking a question of “American High School Distance Running”

    We need to practice running fast with distance runners. The ability to put force in the ground can be complex – and the Bosch interview will make this point – but for HS distance coaches I would simple ask the question, “Do you ask kids to run 30, 40, 50 or 60m at 95% every 7-10 days, with full recoveries?” If the answer is No then you need to listen to part two of the Bosch interview because when asked what the post important thing the developmental (i.e. middle school and high school) coach can do, he says “Technique. Athletes need to be techniquely sound at a young age.”

    There is a HS coach in Colorado that was likely annoyed with me when I suggested that the reason many of his kids heal strike is that they don't run near max, i.e. 95% in practice (note: I never say 100% because the kids tend to strain their necks because they're trying hard and they end up running slower because of it; if you cue 95% then run really hard, but run a bit relaxed too).

    This series is long for a reason: I think people should do this workout.

    http://www.coachjayjohnson.com/2009/05/speed-de…

    That's why I took the time to edit it.

    During cross country season? Yes. Once every 2-3 weeks, assuming the kids are strong enough to handle it.

    Will it make them better for cross? Probably not by much as freshman, yet if you view a 4 year career as 16 parts, with eight being the competition seasons (4 xc and 4 track), then the winters and summers, then I would argue that a fast track athlete as a junior has the potential to be a killer cross athlete as a senior.

    We need to adopt the long view. We need to look beyond macrocycles. We need to help athletes explore the possibility that they have a beautiful gait that is waiting to bloom with the proper strength and technical encouragement.

    That's my rant.

    To tct. Gary Snyder started his book Mountain and Rivers without End in 1956. He finished it in 1996. I share this because there is no doubt that if you do a great job of adopting the long view then someone like Corey Ihmels at Iowa State will get all of the credit. But Corey is a great young coach and he will continue to develop athletes…and if he gets an athletic athlete for whom the five biomotor abilities have been addressed, then both you and he will be able to celebrate with the athlete when they score a point in the Big 12 conf. meet or become an All-American or run in the US Olympic Trials.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountains_and_Rive…

  • thomas_t

    Boy, if that's what you consider a rant Jay, I would hate to hear what you term screeds that come out of the mouths of certain Cable “News” personalities.* Anyway, thanks for the great response. As is usual, the most obvious answer (running fast) is usually the correct one, and the answer to your question (do we run at 95% every week) is no. 8 sec hill sprints were something I wanted to add into the repertoire this summer but never got around to it. It has definitely been my intent to incorporate some of the aspects of speed development into this spring's track program. Why not now? Well, partly because I realize there is enough carryover between high school kids and my day job (working with autistic kids), mainly routines are important to both populations and we've already made a lot of different changes to routines. Justifiable excuse? Probably not.** But the more I think about it, introducing speed development might make more sense in xc season b/c we have the resources (surfaces not covered under inches of ice/snow) to actually perform it. More things to think about.

    Great point made about the long view. I know you Big 12 guys probably like to stick together but I grew up in the Big 10 half of the state so hopefully I'll be sharing those successes with Coach Anderson=)***

    thanks again, thos

    * Bill “Papa Bear” O'Reilly, Glen “Do I still have any advertisers left?” Beck to name a few
    ** What was Gambetta's post about if you're comfortable, you're not leading?
    *** It's a testament to the power of track and field that Drake Stadium is probably the one place in the state, where all are met with equal approbation, whether its Lisa Koll, the UNI 4 x 4, or a Hawkeye wearing black and gold.

  • http://stevemagness.blogspot.com stevemagness

    LOVE this post!

    Can't add much at all, except to say that it works. I've had athletes doing sprints for the past 4yrs before CC and before track. I can't tell you how many people thought we were crazy for doing 60-70m sprints during our base period. It works though. There mechanics improve without much cueing.

    I think if you can sell it as creating a base of neuromuscular work, it fits right in with the idea of a base period. Create a base of aerobic work with all that running and create a base of pure speed on which to work off of. Plus, if you can sprint, your going to recruit way more muscle motor units. If you can learn to recruit them, which sprinting forces you to do, then you have a bigger pool of muscle fibers to use during a race when all of them are seemingly failing.

    I really like the progression of starting off younger athletes or new athletes with sprint up a slight hill (because they HAVE to put their feet down, and the injury risk is very low). Then transitioning into sprints on track.

    Anyways, basically, pure speed work is KEY! It's worked wonders with a bunch of pretty dang good HS kids in my experience.

  • mgooch

    Marc,

    If you are doing the general strength rountines that Jay presents on this website, as well as on Building A Better Runner, then many of those imbalances should be worked out with time. A significant part of that is also the lunge matrix. Being strong and athletic in all three planes of motion is very important and will help you in your running. Don't rush through the LM… its a common mistake. I know that Sara does the LM very smoothly in the video…but as I believe Jay noted previously she has been doing the LM as a warm up for 4 years.

    Since I believe your original question revolved around upper body strengthening, I would suggest starting by putting together a series of body weight exercises. I mentioned some in my previous post. The great thing about theses exercises is that they require core stabilization to complete them correctly and under control. (ie push ups, pull ups, chin ups, dips) This will allow you to be able to complete the exercises regardless of where you are (traveling for meets, on vaction with your family, etc…). Also, the use of the stabilization muscles as well as primary and secondary muscles groups will increase your neuro-muscular efficiecy. This basically means that your body will be able to fire the muscles and use the strength that you already have… more efficiently. These gains in neuromusclar efficiency will be the main reason for increases in strength that you have in the first 2-3 weeks of doing the exercises.

    At 178-179 I would imagine that you certainly aren't trying to add much muscular bulk to your frame. If you are working out in the weight room, shoot for a minimum of 10-12 repetitions. The general rule of thumb is for muscular endurance you should shoot for 3 sets of 12 or more repetitions.

    You mentioned that you have some issues with being a bit long with your stride. While on your next long run, try to count on average how many steps you take in a minute. Research suggests that some elite runners take as many 180 steps per minute (great turn over)…but the average runner will be more around 140-160 steps a minute. In trying to keep your turn over a bit faster and more consistent, try concentrating on running to a rhythm to over a series of steps. (Especially when you are getting a lit bit tired on the run). Whether this a linking your breathing with your steps…. or counting in your head each time your foot hits the ground (ie 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4 etc…).

    If you have specific questions about how to put together the exercises into a program or different variations of the aforementioned exercises feel free to shoot me an email.

    mattgooch@gmail.com

    Good luck this season!

    Matt