Mailbag 004

Jim Gerweck, one of the editors at RunningTimes, emailed me the following question.

I’m writing a piece for the HS section on training for non-running athletes during the winter – i.e. Athletes who do XC & spring/outdoor track, but might play basketball, hockey, wrestle or swim during the winter. Maybe you could post something about what coaches have kids like that do during the winter. Nothing beyond their sport practice? Or weekend mileage – how much & how hard. Feel free to put in your own .02 as well.

Ironic the Jim emailed me the same day that I read his article on Anna Willard in the current issue (Nov. 09). Obviously Jim’s hoping to have you, the readership, help him with his article, which if you’ll pardon a slight puffing of the chest on my part, makes my day to think that one of RT’s editors wants help via this site. Very cool.

So, please comment below and no doubt you’ll have some great contributions. Here are my .02

I was fortunate to play on a very good basketball team in high school, making running training secondary to basketball dreams. Not until my senior year did I fully accept that I could run at a higher level in college than I could play basketball. I bring this up because my senior year of track was short as we made it to the state tournament at the old McNicoles arena and that meant I was two to three weeks behind everyone else. Not only does this explain why Tom Reese, who would not only beat me at the state meet in the 3,200m (I was third) but who, when I had guarded him earlier in the season, patted me on the butt after hitting a three pointer over me (in my defense, Tommy was good – my wife nearly wrecked her Jeep when, in the second summer she lived in Boulder, was listening to Irv Brown on the radio and he listed Tommy as one of the top 5 clutch shooters in Colorado HS basketball history).

That winter I ran 6-8 miles every Sunday during the basketball season as we couldn’t practice on Sundays per CHSAA rules.

Fast forward to track and at the end of my senior year of HS the fastest 3,200m times of the year were roughly:

Chris Severy – 9:32ish
Tom Reese – 9:39ish
Chris Borton – 9:40ish
Jay Johnson – 9:45
Adam Goucher* – Was hurt and would have obviously killed everyone else as he was between his Footlocker win and NCAA cross debut (free DVD to anyone who can identify the logo/athletic manufacturer of the CU uniform from that year).

My point with that list is:

Chris Severy – Skied 50-60 days a year and road his bike to school EVERY DAY his senior year in Aspen
Tom Reese – Averaged close to 30 points a game in basketball; never ran during basketball season
Chris Borton – Trained for running and likely ran volumes that would be considered sound/normal today
Jay Johnson – Poorly defended Reese; ran once a week, SLOWLY, during the basketball season
Adam Goucher – Ran in the Junior World cross meet in Japan and hurt his ankle, but was training from Footlocker to that meet.

Adam Batliner, who would go on to finish 3rd in the steeple at the NCAA meet twice, no doubt ran in the winter, but never ran more than 40-50 miles a week. If you throw in Clint Wells and Zeke Tiernan, who were 1993 HS graduates, yet I always count them in “my era,” then you have another basketball player (Clint) and another skier (Zeker). So that’s seven boys from the state of Colorado who would go onto run at CU and only one, Batliner, didn’t ski a ton or play basketball…though now that I think about it Batliner was probably a 20 days a year skier. Not the same as Chris and Zeke living just a mile from the lift, but it means my 40-50 mileage guess for Bat is probably more like 25-40. (Note: Six of the seven went on to become All-Americans; 5 did in both cross and track; no DVDs if you correctly guess who did not belong :-) )

Times have changed. I ran 8 miles three times in HS; I ran 10 miles once. I ran 9:45 and 4:25 my senior year off of 30-35 miles a week. Tommy ran 4:15 in Denver off of 5-6 days a week – never running Sunday and often taking Saturday off too – which is why I have little doubt that no Colorado HS kid in the last 15 years has run as fast off of as little. Few boys run 4:15 in our state and when they do, they either made Footlocker in the fall or were close and in this day and age you don’t make Footlocker as a male off of 35 miles a week.

But…

we all were running 80-85 miles a week within one year of arriving at the foot of the pony-tailed guru (do that math if you’re curious – it’s not easy to get 85 with only one number each day). We didn’t get hurt any more than the other good, serious programs, though having a book chronicling every day of a cross season makes it look that way, and no one ever had a femoral stress fracture. We were all injured later in our careers (who isn’t in college?) and my simpleton explanation goes like this: when were still athletes we didn’t get hurt, but as time went on we lost the athleticism inherent in our HS “training” and become sagital plane only athletes, who were more susceptible to injury.

Now, I know there are holes in that logic, but consider the following:

  • In mid-may of 1994 I had run 8 miles three times in my life. By September first I was running 8 miles every day, running 14 on Sunday, running 12 on Wednesday and running 10 on Tuesday and Friday.
  • I got hurt in March, but only after running 8:22 for 3,000m, which is under 9:00 for 3,200m, which was WAY faster than I had run just 9 months earlier. I got a hot spot in the next couple of weeks, red-shirted the spring, then came back in the fall.
  • In September of my sophomore year we ran in Pasco, WA on a Saturday. On Sunday I ran 20 miles in 2:04, with roughly 12 teammates ahead of me, the same number who had finished ahead of me in the race the day prior. Do the math. In just 16 months I went from the 35 miles a week guy to the sub 6:15 a mile for 20 miles guy.

Final thought. Every time the pony-tailed guru gets a good athlete, you hear about that person. When I spoke to Dathan last week on the track – after reminding him that Kalin’s saintly nature is the reason for his success, specifically his new American Record – I told him that every year at camp I tell kids that Dathan is a very good athlete. Skinny males who live and breath running love Dathan because he looks like them, yet if these kids can’t skip (see this video) after our easy Saturday run during camp I make sure to tell them about Dathan. Dan Pfaff said it best: “Dathan’s very motor-educable.” Jorge’s a great athlete. Dathan’s a good athlete. Alan Culpepper can ski and skateboard and play a killer guitar lick. Adam Goucher was convinced he could have played corner at CU. Brent Vaughn is a much better athlete then people think. Jenny and Renee and Sara Slattery and Kara and Shayne are all good athletes.

So, that’s my .02 Jim. Hope it’s useful.

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  • Don
    Do as I say, not as I did? My experience is really within reason, less is more in high school. If I had a nickel for every burned out sophomore I'd be rich. Keep them well rounded. You were and it worked out just fine. If they aren't well rounded, you won't solve that one.

    The good ones will get serious when it matters.
  • Up here in the Northeast once the winter ice/snow socks us in it is hard to have ANY athlete do a quality aerobic workout... Our school has no track and we battle the 6 basketball teams for use of one of the 2 gyms...

    we do a lot of circuit training in the cafeteria and do a LOT of stair running. 20 minutes on the stairs (3 stories) give a pretty high level aerobic workout... (with leg burn to boot)

    Spring athletes that play basketball are encouraged to run 2-3 times a week... 20-40 minutes on the treadmill or 20 min on the stair master is all I can expect during the winter months...

    anyone have good suggestions for indoor aerobic workouts that can be done in a single room...
  • Bart Sessa's boys at Syosset broke the indoor 4x800m record a couple of years ago. They have no indoor track and run in the hallways.

    http://ny.milesplit.us/articles/20440

    Bart's a great guy, a friend and a damn good coach. I will ask him what his thoughts are for "indoor aerobic workouts that can be done in a single room."
  • Remember when we (by we I mean those of us born in the late 80s) were in grade school and kicked ass in the Jump Rope for Heart fundraisers?

    Jump rope circuits are a seriously overlooked method of indoor winter training with a 3 in 1 aerobic, plyometric and general strength component. Alternate one minute of normal jumping with a minute of fast, skip, one leg, forward, back, side to side, double hop, etc. You could also use a weighted rope from time to time.

    Another great option would be Vern Gambetta's DVD, "Circuit Training". I haven't watched yet because I've been busy taking a look at his plyometric stuff, but I'm sure it's good for some ideas.
  • Rhymenocerous
    "I get emails all the time from high school kids who say, 'I want to run as fast as Jorge Torres. I want to run as fast as Dathan Ritzenhein. How do I do that?' I want to tell them, 'Kill yourself and hope you're reborn with better genetics.'" That remains one of the funniest, most cynical, and most true statements I've heard. I enjoy humour, cynicism, and truth so maybe that's why I like it so much. I think it applies here to the discussion about non-running winter activity.

    Perhaps your example doesn't apply everywhere because you're talking about one of the better groups ever to come through CU. Some above-average genetics there. Obviously the Severy family is athletically talented all the way down the line, Tommy is a freak and his brothers only slightly less so, and everything has been said twenty times about Adam. The funny thing is, of the guys whose HS training you detailed (Severy, yourself, Tommy, Gouch, Bat, Borton) it's Batliner (who has an athletic family - his brother can ski better than most and probably kill everyone but CW with his bare hands) who probably ran the most during the winter in HS (at least amongst the future CU guys), ran the slowest (don't think he broke 10:00), but then had arguably the second-best college and post-collegiate career. Makes one scratch their head.
    I like your point about general athleticism keeping you guys healthy initially and then wearing off, leading to injury. It's something I hadn't thought of before, and it makes sense, I can see it in other situations as well. However, as far as winter running, I think in some ways it doesn't really matter what HS kids do - 1M/2M is so short unless some kid is doing focused, calculated hard training the cream (inborn talent) is going to rise to the top, at least over the short-term. And in some cases, even training hard doesn't matter. An 18 yr. old who ran a lot (70-80 mpw) is still going to get his ass comprehensively dismantled by a 16 yr. old Garrett Heath type who didn't run a step until mid-March but nordic skiied.
    I suppose it may be the long-term where consistent off-season running and running-beneficial activities pay off as far as cumulative volume and injury prevention.
  • "The funny thing is, of the guys whose HS training you detailed (Severy, yourself, Tommy, Gouch, Bat, Borton) it's Batliner ... arguably the second-best college and post-collegiate career. Makes one scratch their head."

    Well said and I wish I had said that myself as that statement is accurate and important. The kid that likely had the most "general running" in the winter months was twice the first American runner in an NCAA final. He ran under 8:00 for 3k indoors when that was rare and he was less injured than than some of the other CU athletes.

    I keep thinking you should just write the damn blog. You write well and you're comments always make me think.

    I hope you're well and I look forward to sharing a run sometime soon.
  • steepledude
    Jay, great post as usual. I believe that you are correct in your assessment that great athletes make great runners. I could develop a strong list just like yours with evidence to support your claim. (I have a great story of an athlete of mine who in the past 12 months has started as a tight-end in football, pitching in baseball, and challenging for the top 7 on a college XC team—how many people can say that?!)

    Too often, coaches get so sucked into the running part, that they neglect the basic tenets of athleticism that are taught in other sports. Many college coaches are afraid of the Steeplechase because they think that their runners will get hurt running it--and you know what, they're probably right. Their team is not composed of athletes--they're runners. Events like the 800m, 1500m and Steeplechase require runners to be athletes. They need explosive power, balance, agility and competitiveness; elements that are typically under-coached. Sports such as wrestling and basketball (common winter sports here in California) help in the development of the student’s growing bodies and will assist them in their overall athleticism.

    Perhaps the greatest benefit of all though is not a physical benefit to the athlete, but a social benefit. I have seen Cross Country and Track & Field coaches and runners neglect the concept of teamwork, while it is a fundamental concept taught in other sports. Ultimately, that is what sports in general and Cross Country and Track & Field specifically, are: a group of many individuals to working together as one.

    -Mike Atwood
    Head XC Coach
    University of La Verne
  • ryanwest
    Our XC kids play ultimate frisbee twice a week during the winter. Lots of aerobic running but different than practice. There are leagues and tournaments if you look around and we even got together with another HS for a game. I usually wait to do any running until January when we start the base buildup for spring track. That gives us 2 months of easy base running before track. Ultimate continues all the way until track in March.
  • For the DVD: Goldwin?
  • Yes!!! I'm impressed someone got it this quickly. The warm-ups were comical, but definitely high quality apparel.

    http://www.goldwin.co.jp/corp/info/e/history.html

    Email me your mailing address and I'll send you a DVD. coachjayjohnson@gmail.com
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