What do you wish you knew?

Posted on January 9, 2010 by CoachJay

What do you wish you knew about running that you don’t know?

Do you wish you knew how threshold running causes changes on the cellular and enzymatic levels?

Do you wish you knew what the third most accomplished athlete you work with thinks about when they’re starting to hurt in a race and have 25% of the race distance to finish?

Do you wish you knew if a workout elicited the physiological responses you were hoping for? And if so, do those responses differ from athlete to athlete? And if so, is that difference a function of fiber type or is random or does it fall along a bell curve, with the majority of the team experiencing one response and two tails (i.e a group that thrives with this workout and a group that fails)?

Do you wish you knew what other coaches/peers were doing four weeks out from the state meet?

Do you wish you know what college coaches were thinking during he recruiting process?

Do you wish you knew the five most common causes of shin splints and IT band injuries? Do you wish you knew how to address those injuries proactively?

There is a lot I don’t know about running. I thought that backwards skipping down a hill was working the posterior chain, but I’m mostly wrong. I think that during my 100 minute run today the 1.5 miles at 5:44 pace and the 1.0 mile at 5:32 pace (both up slight grades – 1% – then flat or downhill) were a stress that will cause enzymes in the mitochondria may be altered and improved in the coming hours, but to be honest, I don’t really care if that’s true or not. For my level of fitness that’s a longish run and because I’ve never tried to run half marathon or marathon pace in the middle of a long run I have no doubt that some sort of training stimulus occurred. I’d much rather know what’s happening during backwards skipping down a hill in terms muscle activation.

Here’s the deal – I want to help you figure out answers to the things you don’t know and I’m curious what those are. I think that for many of you I’m only one degree removed from a person who can help answer your question, or at least shed some light on your question and I’d love to add that element to this site in 2010. If you have a moment let me know in the comments below or via email at coachjayjohnson@gmail.com regarding things you wish you knew. Thanks for your time.

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  • http://coachjayjohnson.com CoachJay

    I think I owe you answers to the above questions.

    1. Not really. Threshold running works, even though I'm confident there are many “thresholds” and that being super anal about it is not as important as finding the balance between the intensity of the threshold pace and the duration, and then pushing those two variable forward over time (i.e. helping that athlete run a given threshold distance faster or helping them run a given pace for a longer duration). Specificity is specificity; long slow running is long slow running; between those two poles is, eventually, an area of threshold running. To many HS coaches skip this area and move towards VO2 max work – work that isn't even race pace for their 800m or 1,600m kid, but also has a point of diminishing returns. The flip side is too many collegiate and post collegiate athletes only do threshold work and while you'll get fit doing that, it's only one type of fitness and, relative to this analogy, it makes a bland soup If you're anal about being at the two extremes of the poles then I think the threshold portion comes more by feel than by numeric values, though several years working with Jack Daniels book will no doubt help you and the athletes to do it by feel. But who knows, I might be totally wrong and maybe a threshold value every 8-10 weeks is the key to intelligent training design.

    2. I'd pay a lot to know this, though it's probably a sign of arrogance to think that having that knowledge means I'd be able to use it to help the athlete. But the bottom line is this. With 200m to go in Eugene at the 2008 US Olympic Trials there is no doubt he Christian Smith was thinking “Top 3″ yet I think for most of us this is the most important area where we have the least expertise.

    3. Yes. Yes, yes! Yes, Yes Yes!!! (and I think fiber type is really important in how they end up across that continuum).

    4. Yes, but I'd be even more curious 10 weeks out and 96 hours out.

    5. No.

    6. Yes and yes…and that sounds like two good DVD titles to research and produce, don't you think?

  • http://coachjayjohnson.com CoachJay

    I promise to keep using HTML so we get cool colored links and not long strings of gibberish in my comments. I guess it's one of the many New Year's resolutions.

  • Chris Puppione

    Jay-

    What a cool idea!!! Just had to say that to start…

    Now to compile my list…wow, imagine the possibilities.

  • georgezack

    I am not seeing Chris' comments but that might be my browser.

    Okay … the in-answerable question. The question (but you asked) … the good day versus the bad day.

    1 in 20 (or so) runs, we run as if pushed by some other hand. We leave those runs either wondering, “where did that come from?” or “wait until I really push.”

    The other 19 runs … mediocre …

    What I wish I knew is what caused those runs that were light and easy – but exceeding of expectations (particularly in races) … and what caused those that were more regular (particularly in races).

  • Chris Puppione

    Your browser is fine…I just haven't listed my “wishes” yet…

    Gotta be thrifty with those, you know. Only Jay gets more than 3–genie's rules and all…

  • mnort

    I'd like to know if there's any way to better group my HS athletes for training purposes (i.e., 400/800, 800/1600, or 3200) than my current, rather unscientific approach.

    Like Jay mentioned in his post, I always have a couple kids who plateau in early April, almost certainly because I'm not training them the best way.

  • Brooks Mann

    I'd like to know a valid way to measure the load of a workout (without expensive equipment). I know everyone is different in their responses to different types of work (thresholds, sprinting…), but I would like a general system to quantify how much work a runner is doing in a particular workout that would help me compare/ construct workouts of differing paces (i.e.: 5 miles at marathon pace=8x400m @ mile pace=16×100 @ 400m race pace).

  • Glenn James

    I wish I knew how to get HS kids to recognize the talent/potential I see in them (more from a psychological than a physical standpoint) and to compete with the confidence that results from that recognition.

  • pointzone

    I wish I knew how to ensure my 4 sophomores and 1 freshman girl, who finished 5th in AAA in Tennessee this year, would continue to develop and have a chance to win a state title and qualify for NXN.

  • http://michigancrosscountry.comd/ Don

    Yeah, let's go with this one:
    Do you wish you knew the five most common causes of shin splints and IT band
    injuries? Do you wish you knew how to address those injuries proactively?

    I've heard lots of theories, the most recent of which is modern running shoes vs barefoot running.

  • fhscoach

    I agree with you Matt. Having 25-30 distance kids of varying abilities and races by myself makes it difficult to split them up into mulitple training groups.

  • Josh

    I am admittedly inexperienced as a distance coach, but I'd like to know what factors cause some HS kids (or anyone, for that matter) to develop so much faster than others. I know genetic potential is different for each of us but is that really all there is if the workout intensity is the same?

  • http://www.veganoutreach.org/ Matt

    In general, I'm most interested in the mental aspects of racing. Why some (and from what I've seen, moreso girls than boys) can practice so well but often race so poorly. (But sometimes with a great race thrown in.) And the reverse — kids who can't seem to keep up at practice but come through huge in races.

    And what to do to help kids get over bad races, instead of having it destroy their 15- 16-year-old confidence.

    Somewhat along the lines of what Glenn said.

  • http://stevemagness.blogspot.com stevemagness

    Everytime I figure out something new or think I had a breakthrough in understanding, it just opens up 10 more unanswered questions. For example, I remember the first time I had access to taking lactate samples on myself during workouts and I thought it would answer so many questions. Instead, it just opened up more questions.

    What I wish I knew was some way to globally know an athletes recovery/status so that I could know exactly what workout he was ready for and when I'd done enough work.

    Really, my wish is that it was like that good old Hans Selye General Adaptation Syndrome graph that is in every training book. It'd be so much easier to know how hard to work, when to back off, etc.

    One other wish is that I knew how exactly how to balance all parameters of training (aerobic,anaerobic, CNS, etc.).

    And as an athlete, I wish I knew how other people felt during a race or practice. I'm always curious to know if when others race they feel the same way.

    Just a couple off the top of my head.

  • http://www.runurban.com CoachUrban

    Okay I am currently in the process to put an annual template (single periodisation) together for a group of middle and long distance runners.

    I would like to know:

    - What is the annual template, blueprint or “model” coaches can work from for an endurance athlete (youth, senior, female) for 800/1500 and 5k/10k?

    - How does that annual plan break down in technical, tactical, psychological and physical components?

    - How can all these components integrated, balanced and maximised?

    - What priorities do activites/training units (eg, VO2Max, Drills, Hills, etc.) within those fitness components have? Which of those are more important which of those are less important?

    - How to do progression of those units for how long?

    The answers I am always getting is “it depends”. I think there must be another way to work from a template, show all the options and be able to make more informed decisions.

    Maybe this sounds a bit wacky but this is something spinning in my mind for some time after having read many books, Jack Daniels, Squires/Lehane, Renato Canova, Tim Noakes, Pete Pfitzinger etc.

  • Chichikov

    From any (good) coach, I'd like to know: what does your decision tree look like? Maybe not like a tree…but what questions do you ask first, second, third about an athlete to determine what type of work to assign for a day, a season, a career?

  • steepledude

    A fellow coach asked me this today, “Why am I bothered by the one student who doesn't show up today and not excited for the remainders of the team?”
    Case in point: of 13 sprinters that this coach had, one didn't show, and he's toward the bottom of the barrel. At the end of practice, this coach told me that the athlete's absence put him in a sour mood for the remainder of the day.

    Why do high school girls typically run really well their Frosh/ Soph years and tank after that? How on earth do you coach them at 18 and 19 years old when they come to you for the first time and haven't come close to a PR in 2 years?

  • Chris Puppione

    OK, so I have one thing here that I wish I knew:

    - What is the appropriate recovery interval for different reps at different intensities in different sets at different volumes?

    I can always come up with the paces or effort-levels, but it is selecting the appropriate recovery that presents the greatest challenge for me. While I have used trial and error, it sure would be cool to know what the best recovery periods would be to get the most out of training.

  • Chris Puppione

    Both good questions here. The first one seems simple enough, although I fall victim to the disappointment bug from time to time when a kid no-shows as well.

    The second situation–well, there are lots of reasons, and I have my thoughts on why it happens and how to resolve it. But, I think we are just posting our “wishes” at this point, right? Jay?

    Either way, coaching young women is tough–which also makes it incredibly rewarding when you do it well.

  • CoachKedge

    Steepledude, from another steeplechaser, or at least a once was steeplechaser, man this a a good question. If I could Jay, I'd like to chime in on this one…

    A question that is not about the science of running which we all tend to focus our time on as we try and learn to become better at our craft. Rather it is about kids, motivation, loyality, dedication, and commitment. And much about ourselves as coaches too. Knowing who Mihaly Igloi and Arthur Lydiard are is only one small part of coaching. I've always felt that running, at least on a high school team, is not 90% mental and 10% physical. To me it is far more physical that that, far less mental than most tend to think. That formula leaves out one big aspect to the puzzle. Running in high school has a big social aspect, more so on the girls side but even with the boys. It is a community, a brotherhood that makes XC and track a team sport unique from other opportunities kids have. Bottom line is – how can we get a kid to want to be there rather than to have to be there?

    I don't know the size of your school, the tradition, or the depth of the sprint crew but to get 13 of 14 kids to show up in January is amazing. To your spinrt coach, my advice would be-

    1) Value what you have. 13 of 14 is incredible.
    2) Enjoy your time. It will shine through. Just like his/her displeaure cannot be hidden. There is very few things in life that are more rewarding than having 13 good kids running up and down a field trying to stay fit, to work towards a common goal, and to be willing to listen and work with an adult.
    3) Never give up or bad mouth the kid that was not there. Sometimes there is a reason, other times the student may just need a day. We all need a day. Long ago I learned that not every kid wants to be great. There should still be a spot for that youngser that enjoys track, wants to get better, but just maybe is not bent on setting the world on fire. As long as that child does not take away from the goals of the group I would always find a spot for him or her on my team.
    4) By not letting it itch at you there is still a chance that in time the youngster will “get on board”. In other words, have faith in the big goal of 14 (not 13) kids all working in unison for one common goal. Maybe, one afternoon of sitting on the couch eating corn flakes and watching Sponge Bob was enough reflection for the youngster to realize that he/she is missing out on the fun.
    So 5) Give them a quick, “Hey we missed you, I hope you can make it this afternoon” and hope for the best.

    A side note, we all have the same problems. Somehow, a rich, deep, distance running culture has developed at my school. It's a super-cool thing. With the sprints and throws, I don't seem the same dedication. I'm fortunate that I can find 10 – 15 kids to run bare chested up the side of a mountian in 40 degree weather. Trying to get 3 or 4 kids to do a session of squats in the weight room or to get more than one or two sprinter to think that it is okay to run some strides on a Friday afterschool or a Saturday morning has been difficult. I too pull my hair out, …in private. I've elected to praise the kid that was out there and ask him to find a freind to tag along.

    Good luck to you, your team, and your sprint crew.

  • http://www.veganoutreach.org/ Matt

    The latter is really good. I don't know if we're posting anything beyond wishes, but priorities seem to be the thing. Informal track practice just started here, and of the regional championship XC team, only one girl trained in the offseason. Another ran a bit, but the rest hadn't run at all since State.

  • steepledude

    Thanks for the input Coach Kedge; great points and reminders.

  • CoachAP

    I would like to know what explains the great disparity among middle and long distance runners (especially at the youth and high school levels) in their ability to run and recover between multiple events in a given track meet or between hard practices and/or multiple meets in a given period of time. My sense is that the reasons are many and complex, including fitness, strength, and the relationship between the specific events/workouts and the energy systems and fiber types of the athlete being stressed. In my experience, it seems the “fast-twitch” athletes and the physically stronger “slow-twitch” athletes do best, at least when racing to their strengths, but that the physically weaker slow-twitch athletes struggle between events regardless of their overall fitness and endurance level. Understanding these differences has obvious relevance to constructing and managing both training and racing schedules, especially for the high school athlete, where too many obligatory meets are forced to be treated as practices. All of this leads me to the question of whether you can (and should) train the athlete not only to race, but also to endure and adapt to inflexible rigors of a largely preordained racing schedule.

    P.S. This is my first ever post, so I hope I did not violate protocol.

  • thomas_t

    In the second edition of his Running Formula, Daniels lays something like this out on pg. 39. For your example a 4:45 miler (vDot of 63) would have a marathon pace of 6:00, well, 5:59 actually. According to Daniels this would work out to 10.50 “points”. The same kid, according to Daniels, would be running his 400s in 72. Take that times 8 and it comes out to 9:35 seconds of total running which would work out to a little less than 7.5 points on Daniels' scale. In other words, the 5 miles at marathon pace are harder. Daniels doesn't have any info on faster than mile pace effort so I can't say about the 16 x 100. Obviously, a lot depends on the recovery but I guess it would score the lowest of the three. I used Daniels' chart to analyze our training for this past cross season. It was tedious to say the least but provided an interesting perspective. Our long progression runs ended up being harder than most of our “hard” race paced efforts. Anyway, my sisters boyfriend is suppose to be a wiz with spreadsheets so if I can get him to figure out a nifty formula, I'll be sure to share=)

  • http://coachjayjohnson.com CoachJay

    Great question and I have no clue, yet with my understanding of your training/running, maybe some of it has to do with running trails and being “in the zone.” Transcendental running happens in my humble opinion and the Mesa Trai may be one of the best places to give yourself a chance to transcend. I've not run there in a couple of months…maybe tomorrow.

    Take care George and as the pony tailed guru likes to say, “Straight Ahead.”

  • Nick

    so after watching that lunges matrix video..im curious if you have a particular 800m workout that you think helps the most in terms of improving performance.

  • http://www.veganoutreach.org/ Matt

    Here's an interesting post I just came across — someone answering his question about what he wished he had known when running in college:
    http://www.letsrun.com/2006/collegesuck.php

  • selfcoach

    My wife and I just found out shes pregnant. Since you coach an athlete that i think is pregnant again, sara. How is she doing her training different now. I dont want to intrude on her personal life but a matter of training wise is there a limit to what speed you can do, how long, and what not? I guess in a matter whats safe. My wife is a rec runner but the none of the less still a runner. This might be a good question for female runner everywhere. So I wish i knew more about running while being pregnant.

  • http://www.veganoutreach.org/ Matt

    I'm sure you could find any possible answer to this online somewhere. But my wife (who was all-state in MI for XC and track) ran all through her pregnancy, just slowing down inevitably. It was after — the combination of a newborn and full-time job — that ended her regular running.

  • selfcoach

    Yeah i have noakes book and he goes through alot of the info for pregnancy and running. I just wondered what Jays thoughts were because hes coaching someone elite who is going through this, jay knows most of his stuff, and he gives us access to talk to him.

  • lonnelson

    Are 2-a-day workouts beneficial for a 9th grade girl who is top ten in state (cc and track)? The morning workout would only be aerobic to build her base miles?
    Thanks for any suggestions.