A couple of thoughts on the NCAA meet

First, congratulations to the University of Colorado Men’s who finished third yesterday at the NCAA Cross Country Championships. Check out Daniel Petty‘s article for more details. I’m fortunate to have had the top three scores – Richard Medina, Joe Boshard and Andy Wacker – work at the Boulder Running Camps as counselors; they’re great guys and I’m really happy for them.

There’s something in Daniel’s article that I think is important for coaches and athletes to understand. Coach Mark Wetmore said of the women’s team:

“Honestly, this year, we gambled a little bit and focused on the conference championship more than usual,” Wetmore said. “It was the first year in the Pac-12 and CU wanted to have an impact. In the case of our younger women, they already had raced hard at our conference meet and were a little over the hump.”

Here’s a coach who knows when the athletes are going to run their best; it’s calculated and to a large extent, it’s controlled. Sounds simple, but it’s actually very difficult. Many teams and many runners train hard all the time, running a nice race here and there, yet they can’t “call their shot” and run their best on a specific date. But this is the point of training – to be able to run your best on a specific date (and at a specific distance) – and I think it’s important for coaches and athletes to go back and analyze their training to see if they’re running their best when when they want to. Again, simple concept – run your best on the day you’ve chosen as “the big day” – but much easier said than done.

The other thing that I though I should share is this question that Daniel sent me via twitter.

@coachjayjohnson: Reader asked me why women run 6K and men run 10K in #NCAAXC. Do you know why the divide still exists?

I responded with:

@danielpetty politics that havent changed. Favors schools with strong middle distance as you can see with the top four. Sexist? Maybe.

It is a bit odd, isn’t it, that there is such a big difference in the length of the race? And while my wife, who was an All-American in cross country at Georgetown, is very happy with yesterday’s outcome (Georgetown – ranked number one at the start of the season, yet never won a meet until yesterday – won it’s first NCAA title), there is little doubt in my mind 6k cross country is a completely different beast than 10k cross country. Both challenging, both aerobic, but 10k training is much different than 6k training, the same way 5k training is different than 10k training.

If you have 15-20 minutes check out these two workouts (from 2006 and 2009 respectively) and you’ll see what I mean.

University of Colorado

University of Washington

I love both workouts. Gold Hill is a wonderful place to get a great aerobic stimulus. Conversely, I love Coach Metcalf’s replication of the race – get out hard, maintain, finish strong. And to be sure, Colorado does workouts similar to the Washington workout and Washington no doubt does long runs. But the point I’m trying to make is that it’s interesting that women only run 6k at the NCAA level while men run 67% longer…which is a big difference, a difference that would likely force female athletes at their coaches to re-evaluate their training. And in a day and age of blogging and tweeting I’m surprised more adult female runners don’t ask the same question that was posed to Daniel – “Why do the women run so much shorter than the men at the NCAA Championships?”

Just a question and you may or may not be interested in discussing it. If you are, comment below and I’ll add my thoughts. Again, congratulations to the CU men – a well deserved trophy to a group of men that having been training extremely hard.

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  • Pierre Landry

    Hi Jay,
     
    I'm a big fan of your blog. Keep up the great posts.
     
    I
    think the most obvious observation that can be made in the Women's 6km
    vs. 10km cross country discussion is that the empirical results for NCAA
    XC
    often skew towards mid-distance (1500m-5000m) specialists for the
    women while the Men's race favors the long distance specialists (5000m
    to 10000m). Consider previous Men's champions and runners up: Bairu (Gonzales, Kiplagat) McDougal, Rupp, Chelenga, Rohatinsky (Araia)
    ,Ritz (Hall). Its fairly likely that none of these guys would have
    finished in the top 5 in the 1500m NCAA final or possibly even made the
    final. Now consider the Women's Champions and runners up: Reid (Hasay), Bizzari (year of Barringer's collapse), Kipyego (Kuijken, Barringer), Johanna Nillson (Bierbaum), Smith (Metevier);
    A bunch of these girls have either won or finished in the Top 5 in the
    NCAA 1500m.  So naturally, I would figure that if the NCAA were to
    extend the Women's race to 10km you would see more 5k and 10km
    specialist bringing home the gold on the Women's side.
     
    As
    a result of this shift, one change that would probably occur if the
    distance were increased to 10km would be in recruiting. In my thinking, a
    coach might change scholarship allocations to optimize for the fact
    that less of your HS 800/1600m runners will be running 10km XC.

    Cheers,
    Pierre

    Toronto,Ontario
    Canada

  • http://twitter.com/ToeTheLinePPT Danny Fisher

    It is old politics.  I am an assistant coach at Franklin College inIndiana, D3 school, and although I've heard few question why D3 run 8kfor conference, regions and nationals but D2 and D1 obviously move upin race length, do you know why that is?  Also, this is the first I'veheard about the difference in distances between men and women.  It issurprising nobody else has questioned it, maybe if enough people pushfor it, the ball will start rolling.  I personally would like to seean 8k for women.  Thoughts?

  • http://twitter.com/AndrewArmiger Andrew Armiger

    I also love reading your blog, always gives me something good to think about.

    A significant factor, one of several, that has come up in discussions I have had on the topic is the issue of how the college distances relate to the high school distances.  In most states, I believe, boys run 5K at their state meets.  In many states girls run still only 2 miles at their state meets.  Both boys and girls (should) do training that specifically targets these race distances.  In going from high school to freshman year of college, guys double in race distance and so do the women.  I would attribute much of this back to the high school cc distances and some seemingly archaic attitudes (among state scholastic athletic federations) about how far high school girls can be trained to race.In my opinion, I would like to see the men's (D1/D2) distance drop down to 8K, bringing a little more parity among a field comprised of all track distance specialties.  I would have little problem with the (D1/D2) women increasing to 8K, but only after state federations take girls' state meet distance to 3 miles or 5K.  Seems like too few women's recruits, even highly talented ones, are adequately prepared to take on even 6K as freshmen.  Why that would be is likely a whole other topic.

  • Martin B

    If anything I would think that the men's race should be shorter. Based on the limited number of scholarships, it seems like a lot of schools have depth issues unless, like OK State, they just forget about having a competitive program in every other track and field event. If the men's distance were a bit shorter, you could have your mid distance and true distance guys both contribute, rather than just the distance guys. Women have more scholarships and will be able to field a team no matter what the distance is.

  • Matthew Barreau

    This is a tough one… Do you make it equitable by making it the same distance (everybody running 10k)? Do you make it equitable by making it relative to the time run (28:00 for women would make it about 8500m)? or do you just leave it alone and realize it doesn't create that many problems since everybody operates under the same understanding anyway.

    I would actually like to see the men come down to 8k at the Championship Meets. I've always thought it absurd that the DI/DII men race 8k's all year and
    then jump up to 10k for the Regional/National meets; it really makes no
    sense. I think that the longer race distances actually end up lowering the amount of teams that have a shot to contend due to scholarship funding; the 10k distance doesn't just thin the individual contenders out by making it harder on mid-distance runners, it also thins out the team contenders.

    And, now that I've put my rational thought out there… what I think would REALLY be fun would be to do something crazy like spice up the NCAA XC Meet and do a World Championship style short course/long course. Women do 4k/8k and men do 5k/10k. Keep the team sizes in each to either four or five runners, with either three or four scoring… that way, ridiculously deep programs wouldn't necessarily gain a bigger advantage. Have short course, long course, and combined champions. I think this would not only be a way to perhaps level the playing field a little more, but it would also provide many more freshmen the opportunity to matter in the men's race the way women can in their race. Additionally, for those “XC” programs who are hamstrung by head track coaches who won't give scholarship money to anybody above mid-distance, it gives them an opportunity to be relevant during the fall.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_KRIXL7URWLJ2LBS4IM4R3EHREA Matthew

    Just remember, it really wasn't all that long ago (for those of us who aren't kids!) that women weren't allowed to run marathons at all!

    I love the G'town stat about having not won a meet all year. 

    And I second the idea that men should run 8k. What do you think, Jay — you were in that situation of distances going up.

  • John H Kenworthy/rnn1ngf00l

    I have to object. I'm not sure there are more than a couple states that run under 4km and a majority run 5km for girls XC. Not sure where you see 2 mile XC outside of Texas.

  • http://coachjayjohnson.com CoachJay

    I had someone email me saying I should have said congratulations to Wisconsin's men's team.  Agreed – they ran well and soundly beat two good teams in Oklahoma State and CU.  I was reminded that this brings them to 5 titles for the men.  Impressive.

    Also got an email saying the real question should be why don't men run less.  Good question.  I will give my thoughts on that later…and they will focus on the the idea that more DI programs are “fully funded” – they have 12.6 scholarships for men and 18 (18!!!) for women (though there is no rule that says you have to use all 18.0).

    So those comments were emailed.  I'll respond to the others below.   Thanks to everyone who has commented.

  • http://coachjayjohnson.com CoachJay

    Great analysis and thanks for backing your thoughts up with the names of the past champs and runners up (and as a Canadian you highlighted your countryman Bairu fist – love it!)

    I'll respond in detail with my issues with the system – though I have to be honest, I'm not super passionate about this issue, more that once a year I wish the woman ran longer because I think it would play into CU's strengths.

    Thanks Pierre.

  • http://coachjayjohnson.com CoachJay

    I think it's interesting that it hasn't come up from former female runners.  No doubt there are woman who run at NCAA championships – across all three divisions – that know they'd place better over a longer race.  Might have made sense to make a change to cross country when the moved from flat 3k to 3k steeple for women.

    Note: NAIA runs a marathon for women, correct?

  • http://coachjayjohnson.com CoachJay

    I've bugged Alan Versaw and Johnathan Beverly on this topic – so far we have Texas and Nebraska at two miles, then some states running 4k.  Hopefully we'll get a definitive list.  That said, I think there are going to be only 10-12 states NOT running 5k for girls, which means the majority of the woman at the DI meet in question ran 5k in high school.

    So Ammar Moussa runs twice the distance as he did at at Arcadia High School while his teammate Catrina McAlister only has to run 1k more than she did in high school.  (Note: I had the pleasure of meeting both of them at the 2010 Nike Elite Camp – great people).  But again, as pointed out in these comments, maybe Ammar should move down 2k to 8k.

  • http://coachjayjohnson.com CoachJay

    Good points.  I think what is interesting in what you've said is that since women's teams that are fully funded have 18.0, they should be able to have 10k specialists as well as the 1,500m runner compete well were the distance 10k and not 6k.

    Ok State comment is sound now, but not too long ago I was a JUCO coach and I vividly remember driving by the track (circa early 2000's).  Looked like an average to poor HS track.  Now with T. Boone Pickens' money they should be at 12.6…but during all the years I ran against them they were likely not fully funded.  Not to say they couldn't have tried in other event areas, but I think we forget that you don't need all four event areas to win conference and national titles.  Vin won with distance runners and one pole vaulter one year.

    Good points and hopefully I can write something a little more coherent in response to all of the comments.

  • http://twitter.com/AndrewArmiger Andrew Armiger

    Certainly, though should the distance be set with respect to the majority or to accommodate the minority?  And, yeah, I wish that minority would get their act together and go to 4K-5K.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=2218646 Nick Stanko

    Another issue to consider. How is the collegiate system preparing runners for the world cross country championships?  Men run 12k and women run 8k.  Junior men run 8k and junior women run 6k.  So… NCAA men and women both run 2k less than world xc.  Not the same percentage, but it does seem that NCAAs are in line with the world stage.

    A good example of a school using their mid-distance runners was Michigan in the late 90's and early 2000's.  Sullivan, Webb, Willis, Brennan and many other Michigan milers all ran well over 10k. I know there are many variables to having a mid-distance guy run well over 10k, but I think it's “easier” for a guy with “natural” speed to race up, than a guy with less “natural” speed to race down.

  • thomas_t

    I watched the live stream of the NCAA's and in the first minutes of the women's race some troll on the twitter/facebook feed commented on how boring the race was. Boy, was he ever proved wrong. I think there was a discussion about this same topic on the Letsrun boards a while back. One of the reasons suggested was there is more parity on the men's at 10k than there is on the women's side. It would be interesting to go back and compare margins of victory (in comparison to race distances) at NCAA T&F's for both genders a a variety of distances 1500. 5k, 10k and see if there is any truth in such an assertion (be kinda like finding the proverbial needle in the haystack: truth on Letsrun:).

    As Pierre points out the 6k distance has certainly been favorable to more mid-d types but you go to the last one on the his list (Kim Smith) the two titles before that (Flanagan) and you see a couple of runners who have had quite a bit of success at the 10k and above. I'll bet you Kipyego has some pretty fast marathons in her future (in addition to her silver medal at this year's worlds). If the parity statement is true it kind of makes you wonder why this is the case, fewer female 10k runners at the college level than male? (or just more dominant female runners). Obviously can throw out the physiology chestnut. Is there still a carryover from the sexist “women can't run marathons” sentiments Matthew alluded to? Andrew talks about the difference in high school training and race differences. I think most states that don't run 5k are pretty much clustered in the upper midwest. Illinois runs a three mile. The Dakotas, Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin all run 4k. I'm not sure about Missouri (but I also wouldn't call it the upper midwest). 

    I'm not sure how much of this is due to archaic attitudes among state federations. Certainly there is some of that. Small schools still played six-on-six basketball in Iowa till 1993. I think some of it is also logistics. Most races start on the half hour at high school meets and there are some girls who run 30:00 4ks (and boys who run the same for a 5k). You bump up the race distance an extra k and those girls are coming in closer to 40 minutes now which could become an issue in late season meets where you are racing the sun to a certain extent. 

    Anyway, I'm not sure how the training aspect plays in to the transfer to the collegiate level. Obviously 4, 5, & 6k training are a lot more similar to each other than 10k training, so while I had never thought of it before I would have to agree with other posters that in some ways the more logical question is, why are the guys running so long? A sensible option (if you keep the guys at 10k) would be to bump the girls up to an 8k. A 20 minute 4 miler would run 25:20 for the 8k and 31:46 for 10k according to McMillan's calculator. Lalang's winning time of 28:44 would fall right in the middle of those two.

    Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving (even if it was over a month ago as maybe the case with our Canadian friends:)

    Thos

  • http://twitter.com/AndrewArmiger Andrew Armiger

    A good article on the Texas situation: http://runningtimes.com/Articl

  • http://coachjayjohnson.com CoachJay

    Thanks for sending this – how ironic an article came out at the same time we're discussing this.  Looks like this may be an issue for states to deal with going forward.

  • http://twitter.com/bestieverchad Chadwick

    After reading your article last week, the situation here in Texas came immediately to mind (especially since Ray Baca was my girlfriends coach in HS and is now coaching her again post college after running at UT).  I had no idea of the rift until we talked about it one night. Apparently, they are closer than ever (he's been trying for the past 10+ years) to moving from 2mi to 5k. As I understand it, it would first take hold in the larger schools (5A) and trickle down.

    [great article from Runningtimes, thanks for posting Andrew]