Podcast 011 – Vern Gambetta Interview

Always appreciate your opinion George, so thanks for taking the time to write in. Definitely could spend time on a variety of topics with Vern. He’s very busy, but in the future I’ll hope to get some time with him and we can do another podcast. I agree, we didn’t get enough training detail.

However, for some general views on strength training in general and plyometrics specifically, the following post may be of interest.

http://www.coachjayjohnson.com/2012/08/plyometrics-for-high-school-distance-runners/

Again, thanks for the comment – really appreciate it.

Great podcast. I just jotted down my thoughts as I listened. I apologize in advanced for the extremely long post.

Train stamina race speed. Good idea on two fronts. One hits on the idea that races are also great workouts and two at the developmental level it’s pry easier for kids to compete (stay focused) over shorter distances and so you teach kids good habits versus checking in the middle of a longer race.

Also like the idea of the odd distances. I actually wish we did this more at the high school level even–especially during indoors. We don’t really have an “indoor season” per se where I coach, more just the first month of meets are indoors until there is only a 50/50 chance it will be 40 and raining on meet days. So why not race off distances? Some of it is for qualifying reasons obviously but again race = workout. Racing a “middle” distance between the 400 and the 800 the 800 and the mile etc allows specialists (which should we really have at HS?) to work on stamina or speed respectively. I wonder what Vern would think about off distances for sprinters?

Strength begets speed.

Interested in what Vern means by XC being too much of a stand alone and what others think of it. Remember someplace (maybe Kenny Moore’s Bowerman book) it being referred to as Fall Track and one of the runners taking some umbrage at that. For what it worth, I think NXN should go back to being Team Nationals and let the individuals compete at Footlocker. There is actually not too much overlap between top runners and top teams. I think it is great to emphasize the team aspect of XC.

God bless you Jay that your first thought on 3 Russians being in the 800 final is “Long-term plan” and not PEDs!

Just because you can measure it doesn’t mean it counts and the comfort of the measurable vs racing being “very uncomfortable”. I was reminded of one of the earliest
flotrack workouts. Coach Shane talks about having girls run in pairs so they don’t slip into that comfort zone.

Perceived exertion and listening to body threshold training. I read RWB as I was just getting into coaching and that was one of my biggest takeaways from the book. Every page seemingly Wetmore is telling runners to listen to their “sensory feedback” (can’t remember exact term). But how do you teach “threshold” I think you have to start someplace with a number (pace per mile/k whatever) but the number needs to be flushed out with language–a description of how it should feel, from the simplistic “comfortably hard” to the ornate (there was a really involved surfing metaphor on
Letsrun a few years back). This is definitely one of the places where the science (numbers) and art (description) of coaching merge. I’d be interested in how others go about it.

“Science on tap not on top” Churchill. Science should verify and validate. I totally agree although I think this plays into one of the foibles of the information age (not exclusive to coaching) where we look for data that supports what we already believe–whether it is in politics, who should be number one in the AP poll or I don’t know–American Idol?

Interesting definition of training age as time spent in organized training. Although if you took the proverbial E. Africans who run to and from school everyday, by that definition they would have a training age of zero while there American contemporary (say 10th grader) might actually have a higher training edge but be able to do less. Take Galen Rupp for example. How many years (and how much “unrealistic” expenditures) did it take him to be able to beat E. African’s with presumably younger training ages?

Upper body strength is postural. Can’t endure quality you don’t have.

Don’t tease me, Vern! Can’t wait to see the strength progression. Finally was able to overhaul our lifting program and streamline it (something I had wanted to do for a long while–yea to being done with grad school) but would love to see Vern’s take on what we should be doing.

One more thought on the relative important of XC and track. In XC seven kids get to run at state. At least in my state only two kids per event get to run at state. I know that influences my feelings on the importance of cross. You can still teach/develop “track” skills in cross.

Well, sorry for the long post again. Love to hear what others think. Thos

So I wrote I long rambling commentary on this post but apparently forgot to post it??? Anyway I will try to recreate it for better…or worse.

I like the idea of racing off distances (what about with sprints I wonder). I wish we did it more in indoor track actually even at the high school level so 800 specialist (should HS kids be “specialists) can work on endurance in a 1k at the same time milers are working on speed. Also give a chance for mid-d and sprinters to meet up at the 600. I think the idea of training for stamina and racing for speed is another important point. Lots of times we forget that races are quality days/workouts. Another important aspect of racing shorter as a developing athlete is I think it is easier for a junior high or elementary school kid to focus for a 600 or 1000 than it is for a mile and thus they learn good competitive habits for competing vs checking out for the middle laps of a race.

“Strength is what begats speed” Foundational vs General Strength

Cross Country as a stand alone sport. I’d like to here Vern talk a little more about this. I remember reading somewhere (maybe Kenny Moore’s Bowerman book) about cross country being referred to as “spring track” and some umbrage being taken at that remark. I get what he is saying about the glut of postseason races. I personally would like to see NXN being strictly a team race and Footlocker being the individual championship. I could be wrong but I don’t think generally there is a ton of overlap between the runners who qualify on teams for NXN and the ones that qualify for individuals to Footlocker.

Bless you Jay that the first thing you think of when you see 3 Russians in the 800 final is long term plan and not PEDs! It’s good to see that someone can be involved in our sport at a high level and not be totally jaded.

“Just because it’s measurable doesn’t mean it counts.”

Good discussion on quantifiable and threshold training and “comfort zones” vs discomfort of racing. Reminded me of one of the
earliest workout videos on flotrack where BYU’s coach talks about pulling girls out of practice if they aren’t running with a buddy.

So here is a question: how do you teach threshold/tempo running? I know how I go about it, there is a descriptive aspect (at it’s simplest “comfortably hard” although there is a great tempo/surfing metaphor
here on letsrun. But there also is a quantifiable aspect, especially on our team where we have 70 girls who will start out running anywhere from 15 low to over 30 for a 4k time trial. In this situation a resource iike Daniels is pretty essential. Eventually you hope that the runners are more able to listen to their bodies and less dependent on the watch. Anyway, threshold training is one of the those points where the art and science of coaching definitely rub up against each other. I read RWB the first time when I was just getting into the coaching game and it seemed like on every page Wetmore was talking about listening to sensory feedback. That ability to listen to your body isn’t only important for training but racing as well. Would love to hear other’s thoughts.

Don’t tease me with this strength progression! I just overhauled our lifting routine–something I had wanted to do for a while but finally had time for (reason # 4,080 I glad to be done with grad school!) but would love to see/hear what Vern thinks.

Can’t endure a quality that you don’t have.

Thoughts on training age. Definition as time spent in organized training. A good definition although probably not applicable to the E. Africans. You take our “inordinately” expensive medal from London and it took Galen several years to be able to beat guys who, according to that definition had a much younger training age.

Getting back to the relative importance of cross country. In my state at least, 7 kids get to run at state xc (plus alternates) only 2 kids can qualify for the state meet exclusive of relays (which we are fortunate to have plenty of). That is an aspect that effects my perception of XC vs Track somewhat (and the kids a lot). If XC is too important in Vern’s eyes extrinsically (the demands on the developing athlete peaking for three seasons) and not an from an intrinsic/developmental view–you can develop the same skill in cross as in track–look at the Kenyans does it matter what cart you put your apples in? Did that make any sense?

Sorry for the long rambling response. Love to hear others thoughts.

Thos